A 20 arc-minute wide field optical spectrograph concept was developed as part of a study for a 30-meter telescope. The idea builds upon fibre positioning techniques currently being developed by the AAO (the Echidna positioner). This approach also provides an opportunity to implement a very wide field instrument on an 8-meter telescope such as Gemini. This particular concept proposes to implement up to 4000 fibers in a 1.5 degree field of view at the prime focus location. Both concepts will be presented.